Carl Craig. Where to start... Well, he came after the first wave of Detroit producers, after Juan, Kevin and Derrick, but for me he is maybe the best. In fact I'll take that back as you can't really compare but Carl Craig has bent the rules of electronic music in a really good way. And continues to do so. His anything goes attitude to making music is a blessing. He's crossed the realms of straight up techno to slow breakbeats, jazz, disco, classical and all in his own specific framework and sound. There are so many killer Carl Craig records in that back catalogue that sometimes you forget how amazing his music is.

We sat down, well we sat on Zoom, to chew the fat one afternoon. Carl had been up all night in the studio but was accommodating and open. We were here to chat Planet E as the label celebrates its 30th birthday this year, but as ever it was a loose conversation though with Carl Craig you want to understand some of the basics on what he thinks and how it works. The music I chose for the piece below are some of my personal favourites. On with the program...

Paul Test Pressing

Yeah, how you doing? All right. Yeah.

Carl Craig

I'm all okay. Apologies for not making it earlier. I was in the studio all night.

Paul Test Pressing

No, it's my bad as well. Anyway, you good?

Carl Craig

Yeah, life is sweet.

Paul Test Pressing

So what where are you?

Carl Craig

I'm in Detroit. I'm in my studio.

Paul Test Pressing

Okay, so you still live there? You’re never going to move again?

Carl Craig

I lived in Barcelona for for a little bit, for maybe three to four years, and it was it was really amazing to be there but the quality of life in Detroit is actually really good in comparison to the rest of the United States. When you live well in Detroit, you live really well.

Paul Test Pressing

I've never been to Detroit. I guess the closest place I've been to it is Atlanta. I really liked it.

Carl Craig

Atlanta is one of those strange places. My family is from Athens near that area. We always drove every year to Atlanta. And I remember how we would always stop in an area in Tennessee driving down and it was a Holiday Inn that we pretty much always stopped at. What I didn't realise, and I don't know if my parents knew either, was that Holiday Inn was started with the intention of it being integrated. Which is great, because I think it's Sam Phillips that started the chain or was involved in it.

[Wikipedia tells us Sam Phillips was also an early investor in the Holiday Inn chain of hotels and an advocate for racial equality, helping to break down racial barriers in the music industry - Ed]

Obviously he’s credited for discovering Elvis and starting Sun Records and stuff. But I didn't know how entertainers had to stay pretty much at someone's boarding house when they visited the south. And we would always go down to Georgia and never really thought about it. until not long ago, maybe 15 years ago, my mom or dad said “you know, where we used to stop was actually like a big Klu Klux Klan stronghold.” So we were kind of in this oasis in the middle of just just craziness, or potential craziness.

So that that part always keeps me away from living in the south plus my mom growing up in Georgia and her experiences being scared all the time and whatever. So seeing Atlanta as like the Hollywood of the south is kind of weird to me.

I went down to visit after living in Barcelona, and I'm driving around in Atlanta and the weather's great, and I'm looking at this like, ‘man, this is like Barcelona. How come we didn't come to Atlanta?’ And then I drove maybe about 20 miles outside of downtown, and there's a big gigantic billboard that says Jesus Saves and it's like, 'that’s the reason why’, because you can be in the middle of this great city but then you get just on the outside of it and it's all Bible belt and you know... It’s a funny place.

Paul Test Pressing

If you're from Athens, that’s where the B52’s are from right? So you would have been a good age when they were pretty popular to be aware of the band and sound. You were like, what, 12?

Carl Craig

No younger than that. They came out when I was 10 in 1979. It was ‘Planet Claire’ and ‘Rock Lobster’. I remember seeing them perform ‘Rock Lobster’ on Saturday Night Live. Well, I think it was Saturday Night Live. And, you know that and seeing Devo play, ’Satisfaction’ was huge for me.

Paul Test Pressing

You know the way you like that, sort of bassline that starts slightly after the kick… Do you think that part of your sound comes from then? I guess I’m asking if that music is foundational in your music?

Carl Craig

Yeah, definitely. Though I’m still highly influenced by what was introduced to me by The Electrifying Mojo. That’s still fundamental. That was me being able to hear the world.

Paul Test Pressing

So it’s 30 years of Planet E. So, going round the houses here a bit, you lived in London and played the clubs so you must know DJ Steve Bicknell. So that first Planet E release, ‘My Machines’, was massive for us when we used to go to his club Lost. It took us a minute to find out what it was because it was a different time, right? We weren’t the sort to ask the DJ and you couldn't just Shazam the tune. Anyway, that record was just such a mad collision of African sounds, breaks whatever. It had all sorts going on. You were really into Shut Up & Dance and that whole scene weren’t you? Where were you hearing those? Were you still in Detroit then? Or London?

Carl Craig

No, I went to London in 1989. So I was already in the scene, if you want to call it that. When I went in ’89 I went with Derrick May and we performed as Rhythm Is Rhythm at the Town and Country Club. We opened for Inner City. Around then I met so many people who I am still friends with… Mark Moore, J Saul Kane, Baby Ford, Kirk DeGiorgio. So the whole breakbeat thing was going on then and what I liked about Shut Up & Dance was that they just lifted shit. They didn't give a fuck. And that was also in my psychology. Like if it works, it fucking works. It doesn't matter where it came from. So with with those boys, they did that track ‘Derek Went Mad’ as they’d lifted a Derrick May record and I love that because they were listening.

You knew that they knew the music. You knew that they were fans of the music. And then I would say, ‘Well, fuck you, since they sample Derrick, I'm going to sample them.’ So I'll grab something from them.

And then we're just talking back and forth. That transatlantic communication. It’s been there since time. I love to be able to have that conversation. It’s kind of like how rappers used to be with diss records. You had to wait until the next record came out. It's not like now where you are basically writing letters to motherfuckers on social media…

Paul Test Pressing

I think one thing you've got in common with a lot of UK producers is that you will sample anything. And I think the UK is classically really good at that. Just smashing it all in a bowl and seeing what comes out. You're pretty good at assimilating various sounds, putting them through the filter and coming with something thats yours. It has a feel to it. So not go all timeline on you but you did the work on Transmit, why did you decide to start Planet E?

Carl Craig

Back then I was a music making machine. I just made tracks constantly. I was doing part time work and then making tracks. It wasn’t like I was sat on tracks or a particular release, but the thing I learnt with Transmat was timing. When I was first involved they had that Suburban Knight record and just sat on it for years. I’d always be like ‘put that out!’ and they’d say ‘times not right’. And then when the record came out people were really ready for it. If it would have came out earlier it would have been before its time, it probably wouldn't have wouldn't have done so well…

Paul Test Pressing

I would say that your records back then kind of stood outside of what else was going on. I'm not sort blowing smoke here but say that remix of Psyche ‘Crackdown’ for example. That record just sounds ridiculously good now. My point is surely you could have just dropped ‘My Machines’ anytime? That would be my take on it. It was futuristic. And it was good. Slap. Put it out.

Carl Craig

I agree as a fan of music and stuff. But, you know, we used to have this commercial for Paul Masson wines and it was Orson Welles. He says, ‘we will sell no wine before it’s time.’ Right?

And fair enough. So you wait for the grape to ripen before you can actually use it. And that's the same with music. Naturally we want to rush it out, because we're fans of it. The funny thing with those 69 records is I recorded those to videotape, so the quality isn't isn't remarkable at all, by any means. But the sound is special. It's got a special sound to it. So that helps it out. So like now it is difficult to put out records that you think sound special. There's so many people that are putting out music that sounds really fucking good… Whether you're using Apple Loops, or they're doing stem mastering or whatever.

A lot of the music that I play in the club now makes the sound system do gymnastics whereas like you put on 69 now after something like a Jamie Jones record or something like that, then it's probably going to fall flat because sonically it doesn't have that thing. But back then loads of records sounded like that as we’re all working on four tracks, cassettes or whatever…

Paul Test Pressing

Studios were really really expensive to rent back then.

Carl Craig

Yeah. The studio was expensive. The tape was expensive. A two inch tape when I was starting out was about $120 and then that went up to $200. So it was so great when DAT tape came about because the tapes are 15 bucks so you can just keep recording and keep recording and keep recording.

Paul Test Pressing

On the sound thing... We we went to chat to Plaid the other week and this sort of came up as we were discussing ‘Bytes’ by Black Dog. I think Ed and Andy from Plaid felt a bit like the mixes weren't forthright enough. We were sat there thinking ‘thats what makes it amazing’. It’s that dust in the music. But you're right in what you say about modern club music which is all so high fidelity and pushed to the brink with limiting. Maybe music should split and have two versions, the club and the home… So, yeah, early on you sort of introduced jazz into your music… I'd say it was that Psyche ‘Crackdown’ remix. Really, that's kind of like a jazz tune to me. If someone asked me to name a jazzy techno record, I'd be like ‘that’.

Carl Craig

It's because of the swing…

Paul Test Pressing

Maybe… I guess the question is more like, how did you get the confidence to do whatever you wanted from the start? Your records were further to the left…

Carl Craig

I started out playing guitar. And I was playing concert bass… So I was playing in a jazz band and I was playing in an orchestra and in church so I come from a background of playing instruments. In comparison to some of the other producers whose approach was different as they came from a different background. They came from a love of music and had good taste. It didn't come from knowing the notes of a major or minor scale. You know… You don’t have to know how to paint figures in order to make something that's really interesting in abstract painting, it's the idea that comes into it, and how you utilise the brushstrokes and the colours but I came from you know, playing guitar, though very badly, but still playing guitar, and learning jazz chords and learning how to play with with bands. So it was a no brainer for me to take what I had musically been trained for, as well as music that I liked, and put those two things together.

So ‘Bug In The Bass Bin’ was probably me doing something that was following ‘Crackdown’ and ‘From Beyond’ and those tracks. I wasn't thinking “jazz”. I was in Belgium when I recorded that and it was the first time that I ever saw a midi’d 808 so all the drum programming is actually done on an Alesis HR16 and its also triggering a delay. It's almost like you're listening to a modem and somehow found a rhythm and melody out of it.

Paul Test Pressing

Have you heard that Clipse tune where Pharell sampled the fax machine?

Carl Craig

He did it? Okay cool. Do you know Nucleus?

Paul Test Pressing

The electro Nucleus or the jazz funk Nucleus?

Carl Craig

That's right there is another Nucleus but the electro one… In ‘Jam On It’ they use us the sync tone (tone used to synchronise machines in the 80s in recording studios - Ed) on the track.

Paul Test Pressing

Amazing… I suppose if you've got a young person there in that studio they’d be like ‘hold on a minute, what was that noise? That thing it just did. Do that again.’

Carl Craig

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Paul Test Pressing

So with you and remixes…One of the first ones that I heard, was that Ultramarine ‘Hooter’ one… Again it was a different sound. I guess what I'm trying to get at is your remixes are very varied. You know… You hear Tori Amos, then you’ll hear another one thats totally different. How do you approach making remixes? Is there a set way? Or is it just what you're feeling at that time?

Carl Craig

It’s just what I’m feeling. I remember hearing with Aphex Twin that he would just give them the track sitting on the side…

Paul Test Pressing

Yeah, not sure if its true... They say on the Curve remix he did the courier turned up and he hadn’t done it so he just gave them a DAT of what he had up on the desk at the time. Probably an element of truth.

Carl Craig

The philosophy is different from time to time though I was always creating a mix based on what I heard from the track. I would try to find something I was interested in to find a groove and then I tried to hit the groove and stuff. I have a lot of respect for the old way of remixing. You know Larry Levan and all those guys where it was basically reorganising the track and adding some heavier drums on it. If it had congas that were in the track that were buried in the seven inch version, they brought the congas out.

I don't know if if you’ve felt it from this conversation but I really respect history. I'm not trying to change history at all. I respect it. Because I understand that in order to move forward, you have to understand what has been done before. Because if you don't, then you do something that you think is the greatest thing in the world, then you find out it has been done 30 years previous. I never want to be in that situation. Also, trying to retain something of the original music. If I can I'll try to. I think it was a horn section in the Ultramarine remix and then I organised everything else around it. My philosophy for doing remixes was guerrilla warfare anyway. It was, you do the mix, you get paid, and that goes into pressing records for my own label and paying for me to continue making my own records.

Paul Test Pressing

What sort of units were you doing when you first started Planet E?

Carl Craig

Typical units were like 3000 - 5000. If you had a big record it could go over 10,000. You know in the old days you hear stories where Kevin (Saunderson) said that he would he would go to Archer (legendary Detroit pressing plant - Ed). I think it was the Kreem ‘Triangle Of Love’ release. He went to Archer picked up whatever he could put it in his trunk, drove straight to Chicago, sold everything the same night, back to Detroit, bought some more records, drove back down to Chicago and sold them all again. Those are great, great times, to have such fun selling music and not really thinking about the numbers.

Paul Test Pressing

It's the sense of freedom that comes with that right? You get the 10k from selling the records and you're like, ‘Hey, happy days. Let’s make another one…’

Carl Craig

Yeah. You can keep on making music and keep on doing what you're doing.

Paul Test Pressing

I'm surprised at the numbers as when I was at Junior Boy’s Own we were shifting more units than that… Could the distribution company have been fixing the numbers?

Carl Craig

We all keep control of manufacturing in Detroit. It's only recently I relinquished mine over the last 10 years or so. So we were pressing records if they asked for 3000 we press 3000. And then we deliver them or we send them to their aggregator or whatever. Detroit is D.I.Y, really fucking D.I.Y, where we were controlling everything that we could. So when Kevin was pressing records, he was fucking pressing records. He was going to Archer to get those records. Omar S still goes and gets the records from Archer. I think Kenny Dixon still presses there and goes and gets the records. And those guys sell really good numbers because they know how to sell sell the vinyl.

Paul Test Pressing

How do you decide what project is going to get the focus?

Carl Craig

For the most part, my process of making music is just making music, and then I would put a name to it. So, you know, I'd live with it for a while too. So say ‘My Machines’, I don't even think I knew I was gonna call something 69 at the time, I just knew I was doing these tracks. And then when I did ‘Desire', I didn't do it necessarily as a 69 record, it just fit best as 69. It was just how I made music. I’d work, put it in the library, and just kept working. Then I’d come back and listen. I’d find the tracks I liked that I’d want to use and then I give it a home after that.

‘Versus' was definitely a situation where we worked on that album as an album. But ‘More Songs About Food and Revolutionary Art’ was an album that was a mix of music that I had that I put together to make that album. Yeah, same thing with ‘Secret Tapes’… It wasn't specifically designed to be Paperclip People. I mean that's why I haven't done any more Paperclip People stuff… Because I haven't made anything that I feel is going to be a good Paperclip People release. I'm just not going to put out music under a name just to play off of the potential popularity of the name. That’s of course, as a businessman, where I fail.

Paul Test Pressing

Well, what comes across from the outside is you get your head into projects and then if it goes well then people get in touch and say ‘Hey, do you want to come and do this for us, we like what you did’. It’s a nice way to be right as long as the phone keeps ringing.

Carl Craig

Yeah, as long as the phone keeps ringing. I mean, you know, my touring is is something that keeps me working and keeps the label happening. I always pick music based on on my heart.

Paul Test Pressing

Yeah that's nice. All right… Last question then… Actually that was like a nice ending. Let's leave it there. I really appreciate the time. Thank you.

Carl Craig

Cool cool.

Carl Craig's most recent release 'Party / After Party' is available now on Bandcamp.